So can I bring up the Afghanistan Clusterfuck again?

[BlkSabbath74]

This is the direct result of letting the State Department plan and execute military operations. That should never happen.

Absolutely.

This was not planned with OPSEC in mind, or for effectiveness or the safety of the Americans there. This was planned so that Biden could give a big speech on 9/11 and take a victory lap.

He's 0-3 at this point...

- Covid Cured
- Victory in Afghanistan
- Economy Stupid

These were all three issues that he planned to capitalize on for an easy win, and all through have blown up in his face.

This is what happens when you plan for Optics and Publicity above effective operational needs.

 

[Irishblooded]

Honestly, it is a testament to the strength of our military and how scared they were of kicking the hornet's nest when we already had one foot out the door that this wasn't an absolute bloodbath.

They literally could have slaughtered Americans in the streets by the hundreds and there's nothing we could have done at that point to prevent it.

So much for Joe's victory lap...

Wish we would have left years ago. We were trying to do anything we could to save reputation at the fact that we were never going to eliminate terrorism in general no matter how long we stayed there. Obama should have removed us when he was there. And the same with Trump. They both said they would get it done. And neither did.


But I can't believe just how bad we left. But in the long scope of it. It will become nothing more than the choppers on top of the embassy in Vietnam.

And unfortunately that will be the historical picutre of it. Not all the work that was put in. Just that last image of the planes leaving and the people trying to run along side them

 

[BlkSabbath74]

Wish we would have left years ago. We were trying to do anything we could to save reputation at the fact that we were never going to eliminate terrorism in general no matter how long we stayed there. Obama should have removed us when he was there. And the same with Trump. They both said they would get it done. And neither did.


But I can't believe just how bad we left. But in the long scope of it. It will become nothing more than the choppers on top of the embassy in Vietnam.

And unfortunately that will be the historical picutre of it. Not all the work that was put in. Just that last image of the planes leaving and the people trying to run along side them

Yeah, we pwned the fuck out of the Taliban in every battle we ever fought in Afghanistan, but we still lost, still left the country worse than we found it, lost face with our own allies and in the international community, and in the end had to beg our enemy for assistance in our evacuation.

Make no mistake, the Biden Administration is lying low, but those Americans still over there are hostages to ensure that the international aid continues to flow to the Taliban.

Like I said, if I were a single cowboy, I would figure out a way to hook up with Massoud's resistance and spend the rest of my life putting lead into Talebs.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

Afghan Resistance Leaders, Long Backed by CIA, Have Fled Following Taliban Takeover

The retreat of Ahmad Massoud and Amrullah Saleh contradicts public claims that they are still in Afghanistan.

theintercept.com

AFGHAN RESISTANCE LEADERS, LONG BACKED BY CIA, HAVE FLED FOLLOWING TALIBAN TAKEOVER
The retreat of Ahmad Massoud and Amrullah Saleh belies public claims that they are still in Afghanistan.


Matthew Cole, Ken Klippenstein
September 21 2021, 4:25 p.m.

THE SON OF Afghanistan’s most celebrated anti-Taliban resistance leader has escaped into neighboring Tajikistan, less than a month after vowing to defend his homeland “no matter what happens.”

Ahmad Massoud, son of the late Northern Alliance leader Ahmad Shah Massoud, fled to Tajikistan shortly after the Taliban seized control of the Panjshir Valley on September 6, according to a senior U.S. intelligence official, a Pentagon consultant, and two former senior Afghan government officials. Massoud was joined a few days later by Amrullah Saleh, the former Afghan vice president and longtime intelligence chief, who left Afghanistan by helicopter, the senior U.S. official and two former Afghan officials said.
https://theintercept.com/newsletter/?source=Article-In&referrer_post_id=370947
The retreat of the two key Afghan resistance figures contradicts public claims that they are still in Afghanistan and holding out against the Taliban and signals a remarkable shift in their fortunes: For the first time in decades, the United States government and the CIA do not appear to be backing them. Massoud and Saleh are both seeking military aid and equipment from the West, but the Biden administration is not supporting them and has given no indication of whether it will provide future assistance, according to the two former Afghan officials and a retired U.S. intelligence official.

On Wednesday, Massoud hired Washington lobbyist Robert Stryk. Massoud and Saleh have been embraced by prominent Republicans like Sen. Lindsey Graham, who is keen on the U.S. returning to Afghanistan.


Neither Massoud nor Saleh has been seen in public since the Taliban took Panjshir. Both come from the mountainous northeastern province, a perennial base of Afghan resistance, first against the Soviet Union and later the Taliban. Massoud is currently in a “safe house” in the Tajik capital of Dushanbe, according to a former senior Afghan government official who spoke with him last week, while Saleh is in a nearby location.

Former Vice President of Afghanistan Amrullah Saleh speaks during a function at the Afghan presidential palace in Kabul on August 4, 2021.

Saleh last tweeted on September 3, as the Taliban began encircling Panjshir. In an accompanying video, he dismissed reports that he had already fled Afghanistan as “totally baseless.” “The RESISTANCE is continuing and will continue,” Saleh tweeted. “I am here with my soil, for my soil & defending its dignity.”

On Monday, Ali Maisam Nazary, a spokesperson for Massoud, told The Intercept that Massoud “is inside Afghanistan … in an undisclosed location.” Saleh could not be reached for comment.

Saleh, who once worked as an aide to Ahmad Shah Massoud and served many years in senior positions in Afghanistan’s U.S.-backed government, tweeted last month that he was the legal successor to former Afghan President Ashraf Ghani, citing Ghani’s decision to flee to the United Arab Emirates. “As per d constitution of Afg, in absence, escape, resignation or death of the President the FVP [First Vice President] becomes the caretaker President,” Saleh tweeted on August 16, the day after the Taliban seized control of Kabul. “I am currently inside my country & am the legitimate care taker President.”

In August, prominent Republicans like Graham and Rep. Mike Waltz called on the Biden administration to recognize Saleh and Massoud as the “legitimate government representatives” of Afghanistan. “We will be going back into Afghanistan,” Graham told the BBC earlier this month. “We’ll have to because the [terror] threat will be so large.”

“I want his voice out,” Graham said of Saleh in an interview with Politico last week. “I’m gonna go all in. [The Taliban are] holding our people hostage. They’re a terrorist group. They’re a radical Islamic jihadist group.” Graham also reportedly secured Saleh a slot on Sean Hannity’s Fox News show in August; Waltz managed to get Massoud booked on Fox News as well. On Tuesday, James Hewitt, a spokesperson for Waltz, reiterated the congressman’s call to recognize Saleh and Massoud as the legitimate representatives of Afghanistan, saying, “Yes, this is still his position,” and linking to a press release titled “Waltz, Graham Call on Biden to Recognize Opposition Forces in the Panjshir Valley.” Graham did not respond to requests for comment.

A growing number of Republican senators have also been urging Biden to designate the Taliban as a terrorist organization, with Senate Intelligence Committee Vice Chair Marco Rubio introducing legislation that would do just that — a move that would likely doom diplomatic engagement with the new government.

The U.S. has long supported opposition groups in Afghanistan, going back to the CIA’s role in arming Afghan mujahideen to fight the Soviets under President Ronald Reagan. Ahmad Shah Massoud, a legendary resistance commander, received CIA funding under Reagan and subsequent U.S. administrations, as his militia ousted the Soviets from Kabul and later led the opposition to the Taliban. Massoud was assassinated by Al Qaeda operatives two days before the 9/11 attacks.

It is not clear whether Ahmad Massoud and his National Resistance Front will win the support of U.S. or other Western governments this time around. Prospects for the resistance appear grim, with the New York Times reporting last week that “combat had largely ceased” in Panjshir province and that “what resistance remained seemed confined to mountainous areas.”

Though Western intelligence agencies have not formally cooperated with Massoud, they reportedly have held informal meetings. There is also ample historical precedent for opposition groups fleeing to neighboring countries to plot their eventual return. This happened most recently in 2001, when the Taliban disappeared into Pakistan and Iran to regroup.

 

[Irishblooded]

Yeah, we pwned the fuck out of the Taliban in every battle we ever fought in Afghanistan, but we still lost, still left the country worse than we found it, lost face with our own allies and in the international community, and in the end had to beg our enemy for assistance in our evacuation.

Make no mistake, the Biden Administration is lying low, but those Americans still over there are hostages to ensure that the international aid continues to flow to the Taliban.

Like I said, if I were a single cowboy, I would figure out a way to hook up with Massoud's resistance and spend the rest of my life putting lead into Talebs.

I have family. And a friend buried over there. And still can't believe we stayed as long as we did. At some point it just became easier to lie and say things. Than to accomplish the goal and leave.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

I have family. And a friend buried over there. And still can't believe we stayed as long as we did. At some point it just became easier to lie and say things. Than to accomplish the goal and leave.

I mean, it wasn't how long we were over there, so much as the poor strategies involved.

I personally think we should still be there, but I am certainly in the minority there, and will not dispute anyone's opinion on that matter.

However, it wasn't how long we were there, but our poor tactics that got so many killed. Look at this chart.

When the Taliban were initially overthrown, it was NOT by us, as is the popular belief. The US and Allies simply used air support to destroy most of the Taliban's heavy warfighting equipment and even the playing field, after which, the Northern Alliance swept in and defeated them on the ground.

Most of the heavy lifting in Afghanistan was done in 2001-2002...by the time I left in late 2002, the Loya Jirga had been completed and Billy Bob Karzai was in power. Bin Laden was long gone and was hiding out in Pakistan, planning to have future Nobel Peace Prize winners shot in the face.

There was really no reason to maintain more than a token force in the region, capable of acting as a QRF in emergencies and providing an axis for air support. I still believe we should be there, but I also believe that should have been the majority of our deployment there over the last two decades. We should have let the Afghans fight their own battles and given them support from the air.

Instead we sent in a troop surge, stupidly attempting to create a network of bases and outposts to effectively occupy the entire country, and at the same time created a bloated, corrupt welfare government within Afghanistan, and poured resources into it. The occupation along with the government corruption slowly lost us the popular support of the Afghan people.

Whereas, if we'd stayed in our lane, let them govern themselves without pushing our Gender Sensitivity Training on them, and just blown some shit up on their behalf on the rare occasions that it was required, we'd have spent less money, lost FAR less lives, still have a duty station there, and have a relatively stable government.

In my humble opinion...but I'm good at analyzing intel...

 

[BlkSabbath74]

I mean, it wasn't how long we were over there, so much as the poor strategies involved.

I personally think we should still be there, but I am certainly in the minority there, and will not dispute anyone's opinion on that matter.

However, it wasn't how long we were there, but our poor tactics that got so many killed. Look at this chart.

When the Taliban were initially overthrown, it was NOT by us, as is the popular belief. The US and Allies simply used air support to destroy most of the Taliban's heavy warfighting equipment and even the playing field, after which, the Northern Alliance swept in and defeated them on the ground.

Most of the heavy lifting in Afghanistan was done in 2001-2002...by the time I left in late 2002, the Loya Jirga had been completed and Billy Bob Karzai was in power. Bin Laden was long gone and was hiding out in Pakistan, planning to have future Nobel Peace Prize winners shot in the face.

There was really no reason to maintain more than a token force in the region, capable of acting as a QRF in emergencies and providing an axis for air support. I still believe we should be there, but I also believe that should have been the majority of our deployment there over the last two decades. We should have let the Afghans fight their own battles and given them support from the air.

Instead we sent in a troop surge, stupidly attempting to create a network of bases and outposts to effectively occupy the entire country, and at the same time created a bloated, corrupt welfare government within Afghanistan, and poured resources into it. The occupation along with the government corruption slowly lost us the popular support of the Afghan people.

Whereas, if we'd stayed in our lane, let them govern themselves without pushing our Gender Sensitivity Training on them, and just blown some shit up on their behalf on the rare occasions that it was required, we'd have spent less money, lost FAR less lives, still have a duty station there, and have a relatively stable government.

In my humble opinion...but I'm good at analyzing intel...

TLDR

If we had invested the same resources into simply providing air support for the ANA's ground operations, with a cost not significantly greater than maintaining and training those same troops at home, we could have run Bagram Air Base for the rest of this century, maybe longer, and very likely sustained the long term viability of a western-friendly government in Afghanistan for that same time.

 

[RuffledFeathers]

Spot on synopsis. We should still be at Bagram with the 2,500 troops, for many good reasons. But primarily, it's always good for your enemy to be looking over their shoulder for threats, instead of focusing their threats on mainland U. S. unopposed. Keep your enemies preoccupied with a constant threat to their own lives and Americans here will live a safer life. Having a drone base near your enemies (multiple nearby) is always a major plus.

 

[Irishblooded]

I mean, it wasn't how long we were over there, so much as the poor strategies involved.

I personally think we should still be there, but I am certainly in the minority there, and will not dispute anyone's opinion on that matter.

However, it wasn't how long we were there, but our poor tactics that got so many killed. Look at this chart.

When the Taliban were initially overthrown, it was NOT by us, as is the popular belief. The US and Allies simply used air support to destroy most of the Taliban's heavy warfighting equipment and even the playing field, after which, the Northern Alliance swept in and defeated them on the ground.

Most of the heavy lifting in Afghanistan was done in 2001-2002...by the time I left in late 2002, the Loya Jirga had been completed and Billy Bob Karzai was in power. Bin Laden was long gone and was hiding out in Pakistan, planning to have future Nobel Peace Prize winners shot in the face.

There was really no reason to maintain more than a token force in the region, capable of acting as a QRF in emergencies and providing an axis for air support. I still believe we should be there, but I also believe that should have been the majority of our deployment there over the last two decades. We should have let the Afghans fight their own battles and given them support from the air.

Instead we sent in a troop surge, stupidly attempting to create a network of bases and outposts to effectively occupy the entire country, and at the same time created a bloated, corrupt welfare government within Afghanistan, and poured resources into it. The occupation along with the government corruption slowly lost us the popular support of the Afghan people.

Whereas, if we'd stayed in our lane, let them govern themselves without pushing our Gender Sensitivity Training on them, and just blown some shit up on their behalf on the rare occasions that it was required, we'd have spent less money, lost FAR less lives, still have a duty station there, and have a relatively stable government.

In my humble opinion...but I'm good at analyzing intel...

I agree with a lot of what you said there.

I have always thought that America under estimated the intelligence of the Afghans by and large. They wanted us there to fight their fight and pay for it. And we did it. In the name of fighting terrorism. Because as long as we could paint whoever we were shooting at as a terrorist the war effort was for it.

Our military should never be a police function. It should only ever be used for the tactics of winning wars and giving the enemy cause of concern against attacking us.

When we ran up the surge and decided we were going to make the country a desert version of N Detriot we fucked up. We would have been better to just let everyone know we shot a bunch of bad guys. And the only guys left there are other versions of other bad guys. And if they decide they want to pick a fight we will bring the B52s and B1Bs back to carpet the mountain tops and came home.

Could have used that money and those troops a lot better here in defense and just in America in general than in offense.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

Spot on synopsis. We should still be at Bagram with the 2,500 troops, for many good reasons. But primarily, it's always good for your enemy to be looking over their shoulder for threats, instead of focusing their threats on mainland U. S. unopposed. Keep your enemies preoccupied with a constant threat to their own lives and Americans here will live a safer life. Having a drone base near your enemies (multiple nearby) is always a major plus.

Absolutely. Strategically, it would have been worth keeping around and improving just to have a foothold right between China and Russia.

People cite the costs, but if you aren't running ground operations, and are only occasionally running air support, then the costs are not significantly higher than maintaining those same troops in the United States and running training exercises.

If we had curbed back to something along those lines by 2005 or so, our loss of life in Afghanistan would be virtually null.

It would simply be a terrible duty station, only slightly better than Fort Polk.

2500 is not a lot, but plenty enough to have maintained the status quo indefinitely, and by holding that base, and effective air supremacy, we could always bring in additional troops as needed.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

I agree with a lot of what you said there.

I have always thought that America under estimated the intelligence of the Afghans by and large. They wanted us there to fight their fight and pay for it. And we did it. In the name of fighting terrorism. Because as long as we could paint whoever we were shooting at as a terrorist the war effort was for it.

I mean, like anywhere, individuals vary.

The leaders of the Taliban are reasonably savvy, though it's hard to call anyone with their set of beliefs intelligent. There is a lot of lead in the water base, and they lost their most intelligent and educated to the United States, several times.

The Taliban succeeded because they were willing to sit in their tents and caves for 20 years and wait for us to get bored and leave.

As far as wanting us to fight their fights, I mean, a lot of different groups involved.

The Ethnic Tajiks under Shah Massoud and now Amhed Massoud are legitimately elite fighters with leaders who are highly educated and brilliant strategists. They are very westernized, and, given the proper support, more than capable of defeating pretty much any enemy.

The Sunnis under Ismael Khan at the western border has always largely been an Iranian stooge, allowing Iran to keep a finger in Aghanistan.

The Hazara around Bamyian are an extremely poorly treated minority, but fearsome fighters.

The Uzbeks under Rashid Dostum were old school Soviet sympathizers mostly concerned with control and profit.

The majority of the rest were lesser Pashtun leaders who are more or less happy to go along with whatever government is in power so long as they can maintain their militia and territory.

The problem with the ANA was not that they fled or surrendered, but that the majority of the Pashtun Warlords simply flipped, and their soldiers along with them...ANA one day, Taliban the next...

It was extremely foolhardy for us to maintain and surge such a large ground occupation, and I am still not sure what the intended purpose of such might have been.

 

[Irishblooded]

I mean, like anywhere, individuals vary.

The leaders of the Taliban are reasonably savvy, though it's hard to call anyone with their set of beliefs intelligent. There is a lot of lead in the water base, and they lost their most intelligent and educated to the United States, several times.

The Taliban succeeded because they were willing to sit in their tents and caves for 20 years and wait for us to get bored and leave.

As far as wanting us to fight their fights, I mean, a lot of different groups involved.

The Ethnic Tajiks under Shah Massoud and now Amhed Massoud are legitimately elite fighters with leaders who are highly educated and brilliant strategists. They are very westernized, and, given the proper support, more than capable of defeating pretty much any enemy.

The Sunnis under Ismael Khan at the western border has always largely been an Iranian stooge, allowing Iran to keep a finger in Aghanistan.

The Hazara around Bamyian are an extremely poorly treated minority, but fearsome fighters.

The Uzbeks under Rashid Dostum were old school Soviet sympathizers mostly concerned with control and profit.

The majority of the rest were lesser Pashtun leaders who are more or less happy to go along with whatever government is in power so long as they can maintain their militia and territory.

The problem with the ANA was not that they fled or surrendered, but that the majority of the Pashtun Warlords simply flipped, and their soldiers along with them...ANA one day, Taliban the next...

It was extremely foolhardy for us to maintain and surge such a large ground occupation, and I am still not sure what the intended purpose of such might have been.

PR and votes.

Honestly. I can't think of any other reason to surge. And I know that sounds trite. And I don't mean it to. But in this area. There is no advantage to offering your enemy more targets. I mean. A large part of the early war was liking playing Civ with your enemy using ww2 tech while you are modern.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

PR and votes.

Honestly. I can't think of any other reason to surge. And I know that sounds trite. And I don't mean it to. But in this area. There is no advantage to offering your enemy more targets. I mean. A large part of the early war was liking playing Civ with your enemy using ww2 tech while you are modern.

Yeah, Optics....

Why would you fire off two meaningless drone strikes against meaningless targets in retribution for a terrorist attack after a complete clusterfuck of a withdrawal?

To look tough and save face...only...oops, one of our translators, 2 of his relatives and 7 kids.

Extraordinary success...

 

[Irishblooded]

Yeah, Optics....

Why would you fire off two meaningless drone strikes against meaningless targets in retribution for a terrorist attack after a complete clusterfuck of a withdrawal?

To look tough and save face...only...oops, one of our translators, 2 of his relatives and 7 kids.

Extraordinary success...

There was an old Bush quote about not spending a 100 million to shove a 20 year old rocket up a camels ass, that comes to mind. He was referring to the guided rocket launches Clinton did in retribution to the embassy bombings in the 90s. That ended up blowing up a couple of scud launchers and a tent or two.

Like you said optics. And unfortunately the hidden part of those optics were the lives that went and in some cases either didn't. Or at least didn't fully return.

It makes too many feel like any sacrifice they offered wasn't good enough. When nothing could be further from the truth. It was the leaders that failed the men on the ground. Not the other way around

 

[BlkSabbath74]

There was an old Bush quote about not spending a 100 million to shove a 20 year old rocket up a camels ass, that comes to mind. He was referring to the guided rocket launches Clinton did in retribution to the embassy bombings in the 90s. That ended up blowing up a couple of scud launchers and a tent or two.

Like you said optics. And unfortunately the hidden part of those optics were the lives that went and in some cases either didn't. Or at least didn't fully return.

I mean, when a Dove politician wants to look more Hawkish, that's what they do. They commit troops to some sort of UN equivalent to social work. They fire off a couple of remote missiles and pat themselves on the back for a job well done.

They LITERALLY have such a poor understanding of warfare and such a poor opinion of soldiers that the believe that passes the sniff test. It probably does with much of their equally ignorant voter base.

They really have absolutely no respect for their own service members and law enforcement.

Time for Ice Cream !!!

 

[BlkSabbath74]

It makes too many feel like any sacrifice they offered wasn't good enough. When nothing could be further from the truth. It was the leaders that failed the men on the ground. Not the other way around

Yeah, I'll be honest, my heart is absolutely split in two for all our service members, their families, and all those poor Afghans, especially the women.

I guess, psychologically, I had a lot hung on Afghanistan.

I may work in some meaningless job, making someone else money to put food on the table for my kids for the rest of my life, but at least I did something. At least, once upon a time, I helped kick the shit out of the boogie man and gave some poor girls some hope that their lives wouldn't be living hells anymore.

Only, now that is gone, and those people are in the shit and there's not a goddamned thing I can do to help them.

 

[OldDevilDawg]

This was not planned with OPSEC in mind,

MSM killed any chance that there would be success. It's been that way since Korea.

 

[OldDevilDawg]

Yeah, I'll be honest, my heart is absolutely split in two for all our service members, their families, and all those poor Afghans, especially the women.

I guess, psychologically, I had a lot hung on Afghanistan.

I may work in some meaningless job, making someone else money to put food on the table for my kids for the rest of my life, but at least I did something. At least, once upon a time, I helped kick the shit out of the boogie man and gave some poor girls some hope that their lives wouldn't be living hells anymore.

Only, now that is gone, and those people are in the shit and there's not a goddamned thing I can do to help them.

I have a buddy that I work with that did multiple tours in the stan. He was wrecked by the bullshit pullout. He had kids at home that he didn't get to see so like all of us that have been there, he adopted kids to fill that void. He told me what hurt the most was knowing that his girls over there were getting raped now because we weren't there to stop it.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

I have a buddy that I work with that did multiple tours in the stan. He was wrecked by the bullshit pullout. He had kids at home that he didn't get to see so like all of us that have been there, he adopted kids to fill that void. He told me what hurt the most was knowing that his girls over there were getting raped now because we weren't there to stop it.

Yeah, I feel the exact same way.

Not just girls, either.

The Taliban are notorious for taking house boys. They rape them, and then when they get too old to be of interest, they execute them for being homosexuals. They usually take boys from their rivals families to end their bloodlines.

I made some relationships with some of the girls over there. We were rebuilding all the girls schools (us, not Unicef) and, dear god, I can remember being there at the school in Konduz on they day it opened with Chris Riggs, and saying to him, these girls are going to have a better life because of what we are doing.

All those girls are now in their 20s, have grown up in a reasonably healthy environment, and now they are all going to be killed or raped and married off to Taliban thugs.

It makes me sick. It makes me weep.It makes me ashamed to be an American. I have gained 25 pounds in the last couple of month, mostly alcohol, which I had quit entirely. We failed them about as badly as you can fail someone. I wish I could help them all. I wish that I could find a way to be good again.

Instead, I've got to sit here and listen to Biden and his cult proclaim an extraordinary victory.

 

[BlkSabbath74]

Thanks for your service.

I am glad we are out of there. I can believe how fucked up the exit was.

I mean, I cannot think of a worse exit.

If we'd kept Bagram until the end, we could have saved so many more....so many more.

If we hadn't left people behind as de facto hostages, we could have gone out on our terms.

It is unthinkable that the ANA and Afghan government would have collapsed until we left Bagram. The Taliban were, and still are, scared shitless of our military, and rightly so. They know that our weakness is our politicians.

Not only could we have gotten everyone out...EVERYONE...but we could have then given the Taliban a parting gift in the form of enough ordnance to have removed their ability to take the country, at least for a few years.

We would STILL be in a position to dictate their course of action, in regards to human rights. Now, instead they have hostages.