So can I bring up the Afghanistan Clusterfuck again?

Copejunkie said:
With all the shit bidens screwed up in the last 9 months this should have been the coup de gras on his ass. Quite frankly impeachment would be to nice.
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Impeachment would work in favor of the DNC at this point.

Nothing against all the Trump supporters, but if the GOP can restrain themselves from running Trump in 2024, they've got this in the bag.
 
RuffledFeathers said:
Not we, but Biden.
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Well, yeah, but also we...

I mean, Biden's mistakes were the most egregious, but our entire policy there was overreaching and bombastic.

WE didn't beat the Taliban in 2001. We simply dropped a shitload of ordnance in order to remove the advantage the Taliban held and let the Northern Alliance do the rest.

After the Loya Jirga was established in Summer 2001 and Billy Bob Karzai was elected, we should have stopped trying to influence the rebuilding of their government and have simply established a QRF and air support at Bagram if needed.

We could have pounded the Taliban back to sand ever 2-3 years as needed at minimal cost of life and dollar.

Instead we overstayed our welcome and ended up supporting an overstuffed, corrupt government that couldn't support itself when we finally got bored and pulled the plug. We troop surged and tried to physically control the ground, costing us both lives and credibility.

So many mistakes, in hindsight.

The Taliban is literally more well armed, more powerful, and more entrenched today that when we first went over there. Meanwhile, the Panjshir Resistance is much weaker and more poorly armed, with few prospects for international support, and the international community is much less inclined to intervene.

Meaning our old allies are in the shit...we fucked them.
 
BlkSabbath74 said:
Well, yeah, but also we...

I mean, Biden's mistakes were the most egregious, but our entire policy there was overreaching and bombastic.

WE didn't beat the Taliban in 2001. We simply dropped a shitload of ordnance in order to remove the advantage the Taliban held and let the Northern Alliance do the rest.

After the Loya Jirga was established in Summer 2001 and Billy Bob Karzai was elected, we should have stopped trying to influence the rebuilding of their government and have simply established a QRF and air support at Bagram if needed.

We could have pounded the Taliban back to sand ever 2-3 years as needed at minimal cost of life and dollar.

Instead we overstayed our welcome and ended up supporting an overstuffed, corrupt government that couldn't support itself when we finally got bored and pulled the plug. We troop surged and tried to physically control the ground, costing us both lives and credibility.

So many mistakes, in hindsight.

The Taliban is literally more well armed, more powerful, and more entrenched today that when we first went over there. Meanwhile, the Panjshir Resistance is much weaker and more poorly armed, with few prospects for international support, and the international community is much less inclined to intervene.

Meaning our old allies are in the shit...we fucked them.
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It's hard for people that haven't been there to understand but you are spot on. The story is bigger than that though. Let's discuss Big Pharma's need for opium when all this Afghan stuff started.
 
My son did a year in Baghdad so he has an opinion on this. We had a long talk. I was in during Nam so I know a bit about a travesty.

OK. The place folded like a cheap tent. But to leave our blood in the lurch and all that weaponry for the camel jockeys to have is a real biggtime eff up on biden's part.

My son was torqued because we spent blood over there trying to get some things straight. I get that.

Like the benghazi fiasco. Our blood comes first and the hell with the rest of the world. Maybe we need to stop playing world cop and if they want to burn, then let em.

I can handle blowing some crap up after 9/11. A little payback.

At least have a co-ordinated pullout and get us and our stuff outta there.
 
BlkSabbath74 said:
I guess there is no one stupid enough to argue against this here, huh?
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Never underestimate my stupidity. I joined the Navy to see the world, went around it twice on a submarine and didn't see a damned thing. Just because I won't argue against you on that point doesn't mean I am not too stupid to do it ... Beer:whistle:;)
 
LyquidMetal said:
My son did a year in Baghdad so he has an opinion on this. We had a long talk. I was in during Nam so I know a bit about a travesty.

OK. The place folded like a cheap tent. But to leave our blood in the lurch and all that weaponry for the camel jockeys to have is a real biggtime eff up on biden's part.

My son was torqued because we spent blood over there trying to get some things straight. I get that.

Like the benghazi fiasco. Our blood comes first and the hell with the rest of the world. Maybe we need to stop playing world cop and if they want to burn, then let em.

I can handle blowing some crap up after 9/11. A little payback.

At least have a co-ordinated pullout and get us and our stuff outta there.
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It really WAS like Benghazi writ large.

There was absolutely NO tactical or strategic planning. It was all designed for optics and publicity.

We COULD have created a permanent base in Bagram and committed 2500 troops there, and it would have propped up that government pretty much forever, without any real boots on the ground and providing occasional air support to the ANA.

Make no mistake, the ANA didn't fold overnight. That was another huge part of the mistake. Rather than removing the regional warlords back in the early 2000s, which would have been costly, we allowed them to remain as part of the government. They became regional governors and ANA commanders and their militias became ANA. That was a huge error, because in the present, those same warlords flipped to the Taliban, along with their militias. All except Amhed Massoud and the Panjshir Valley boys.

Having said that, and we KNEW this was an issue and were told by the former Afghan president that this would happen. Biden literally told him to lie about the readiness of the ANA and the stability of the government so that we could pull out. 2500 troops at a shitty permanent duty station seems a small price to pay to keep millions of women and children from being enslaved, raped and killed.
 
BlkSabbath74 said:
It really WAS like Benghazi writ large.

There was absolutely NO tactical or strategic planning. It was all designed for optics and publicity.

We COULD have created a permanent base in Bagram and committed 2500 troops there, and it would have propped up that government pretty much forever, without any real boots on the ground and providing occasional air support to the ANA.

Make no mistake, the ANA didn't fold overnight. That was another huge part of the mistake. Rather than removing the regional warlords back in the early 2000s, which would have been costly, we allowed them to remain as part of the government. They became regional governors and ANA commanders and their militias became ANA. That was a huge error, because in the present, those same warlords flipped to the Taliban, along with their militias. All except Amhed Massoud and the Panjshir Valley boys.

Having said that, and we KNEW this was an issue and were told by the former Afghan president that this would happen. Biden literally told him to lie about the readiness of the ANA and the stability of the government so that we could pull out. 2500 troops at a shitty permanent duty station seems a small price to pay to keep millions of women and children from being enslaved, raped and killed.
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Having said all that, if we were determined to withdraw, there are quite literally an infinite number of scenarios that would have worked better than what we did, and NONE of them would have involved an overnight withdrawal from Bagram.

You can remove a set of tonsils without going through the anus with a chainsaw.

With the speed that the Taliban swept Afghanistan, it is unthinkable that the deals weren't already in place between the Taliban and the Regional Warlords. Having said that, it is equally unthinkable to say that the overnight evacuation of Bagram, without a word to the Afghan government or our allies, leaving behind POWs and countless equipment told the Taliban that there was no longer any resistance, and accelerated the impending doom of the country.

With Bagram in hand and the troops there, for 20 years we literally had effective control of that entire country and could carry out missions from border to border with relative impunity. Why would we choose to give that advantage up and place our nuts in the hands of hatchet-wielding psychopaths PRIOR to getting all of our citizens, diplomats and allies OUT. They are still fucking there, and the Biden administration has moved on.

Extraordinary Success, Joe. Make sure you flush next time you have such an Extraordinary Success.
 
Irishblooded said:
Thanks for your service.

I am glad we are out of there. I can believe how fucked up the exit was.
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Honestly, it is a testament to the strength of our military and how scared they were of kicking the hornet's nest when we already had one foot out the door that this wasn't an absolute bloodbath.

They literally could have slaughtered Americans in the streets by the hundreds and there's nothing we could have done at that point to prevent it.

So much for Joe's victory lap...
 
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